Carrie Whitcher:
Hi, everyone. My name is Carrie Whitcher, and you too can be a marketplace multiplier because marketplace multipliers equip all Christians to influence their workplace and integrate their faith by making disciples and unleashing the kingdom of God wherever they are. 

Jeff Clark:
Welcome to another episode of the Marketplace Multipliers podcast. My name is Jeff Clark, and I serve as the Associate Head Basketball Coach at Indiana Wesleyan University. Today, we’re gonna be joined by David Drury who works with Global Marketplace Multipliers, a new initiative that’s come out of Marketplace Multipliers in Wesleyan Church. He’s gonna talk about how “work as worship” has been part of his heartbeat for decades now, and the new initiative that he’s part of now living in Istanbul, doing this work and raising others up to do it as well. We’re joined now by David Drury. And David, I wanna go back 16 years, because my first interaction was when you were one of my pastors at College Wesleyan Church, and really you were part of the birth of this passion inside of me. And it started with, what was called at that point, “Sheep to Shepherd” in the whole Soul Shift series from you and Steve DeNeff’s book. So can you go back to that time and maybe even tell how did this whole concept of work as worship become such a major passion for you?

David Drury:
Yeah. I think that the main thing there is there’s a bit of a drift in western church culture towards the clergy, the pastors, the priests, whatever you wanna call them… the paid people that are a part of the kingdom of God being the center of kind of the activity. And the Sheep to Shepherd concept was just we aren’t intended to remain as sheep forever. Every disciple has a future of influencing others for Christ and really shepherding other people. It starts sometimes with just kids, but it really extends to anybody you have influence over.

So that’s really the fundamental call for every disciple is to move from just being a sheep to being a shepherd, which includes – for all of us – most of the time we spend is in our workplace, and we all can move from just being sheep that listen to a sermon on Sundays, to really shepherding those around us. And then our work becomes part of our worship in that way.

Jeff Clark:
I know I can take for granted having been inside a local church that really values this for 15 years. It’s intuitive to me, but I know it’s not for everybody. So fast forward 10 years or so, and we’re working together with Marketplace Multipliers. And I know you were on the ground floor and had a lot of vision for this and passion. And now there’s this new initiative with Global Marketplace Multipliers that’s come out of that in some way. So if you could, just take us through how this thread of passion for you went to Marketplace Multipliers first, and now is part of this new adventure that you’re on.
David Drury:
Yeah. And you know, it’s nothing new, but it sure feels new. Nothing new in the sense that, you know, Paul was a literal tentmaker. In fact, tentmaker became kind of a term for somebody that does a job, and does it well, but then also has ministry in their mind. But of course it feels new because again, in the world of missions, it’s similar to everything else in the Western church culture. We have thought of paid people, in this case, missionaries who raise funds from churches, as being the primary way that we go after the unreached around the world. And, we’re trying to upend that and say, “Hey, that’s one way to do it. It’s not the only way to do it.” And it’s possible that people, because of the global economy, because people are moving from country to country, because they get transferred to another place, because they do have a marketable skill in the global economy, or at least, you know, their career might not work in every country, but it certainly would work in some country. Or some people can just do their job anywhere, and they’re a digital nomad. And why not do that someplace strategic for the mission of God? And so we’re trying to kind of infuse that marketplace energy into the global context, and so Global Partners spun us off to do this as another option for people to get engaged globally if they really care about the unreached people groups around the world. And, you know, it’s not just something that somebody can give to or pray for. Man, their career might actually be the way God gets it done.

Jeff Clark:
Well, it’s interesting that we sit today and talk about this because you’re in Istanbul. This morning, I got an email update from you. Now I sit and I can look at you in a screen and it’s like we’re talking face to face. So everything you’re saying is even a living reality for me today in my communications, hearing what you’re doing across the world. So what opportunity are you seeing emerging now, especially you say for the unreached people groups of the world that maybe has never existed in the history of the world?

David Drury:
Yeah. I mean, things have changed, pretty dramatically. Like you say, you know, I mean, in some ways, I’m strategically positioned here to live in Istanbul. It’s kind of the center of the world. I actually did some research on this. There’s people that figured out that Istanbul, part of Turkey, is actually the land mass center of the world. It’s the place that’s closest to all of the land mass of the world. It’s a kinda weird detail. So it’s good for time zones. Like, I can meet with almost any time zone in the world other than Hawaii. So far, Hawaii is not working. I’d be fine to move to Hawaii too, by the way. But, really fine for me to meet with people all around the world from Asia and even North America, like I’m meeting with you now. My the workday is done here. Business hours are done, but I’m able to meet with you in your morning. But the world has shrunk. There’s a lot of people like that who could do their job anywhere or do it remotely, and then a lot of places are hiring people from other spaces. So there’s really lots more possibilities. And so the world has shrunk, but it’s also so in some ways, it’s getting there’s more opportunity. But in another way, things are getting worse. 4 in 10 people still live without access to the gospel. And just to put that into perspective, 1 in 4 people don’t have food security, so they’re not sure where their next nutritious meal’s coming from. 2 in 10 people don’t have access to clean water. Those are 2 huge things that a lot of people are working on in relief. A lot of those places that that’s actually happening, by the way… Those places have a ton of resources going to them to try and counter those problem. And then there’s a third one that a lot of tech people are working on, and that’s that 3 in 10 people don’t have access to the Internet. A lot of people are working on that. And then 4 in 10 people don’t have access to the gospel, which means they can knock on every door in their neighborhood and never find somebody that knows Jesus. They wouldn’t be able to find somebody that could disciple them. We’re trying to work on that problem, and there’s hardly any resources going to that problem. Hardly any people, even all of the people that are going and working in missions, people that are working in relief on those other problems… Almost none of that is happening in places where there’s not access to the gospel, including where I am right now. And so we need people to think about, boy, do what you do for the glory of God your career, but do it in a place that would be strategic for the mission of God. That’s the real message that we’re going at. That’s from a book I love to recommend called Gaining by Losing. We really need to be thinking about that. Anybody that’s thinking and praying and giving strategically about the mission of God around the world might need to also think about, boy, is your job actually a part of how God wants to solve some of these problems and change that gospel access problem worldwide?

Jeff Clark:
I’ve known you for so long at a heart level… You’re an activator. You activate people, you activate initiatives. So talk to the person who, as they’re listening to this, they have a heartbeat for an unreached place. They have skills that might be able to apply there. Speak from that role of activator. What would you activate in their lives that could actually connect those dots where they could take their skills in the workforce and be part of God’s mission in an unreached place?

David Drury:
Oh, that’s funny you say that. That’s actually my title now for my job is Activator. I don’t know if you even knew that, but they gave me that title. But I, so that apparently, that’s a good title for me. it’s also very vague. I like vague titles because then they can just tell me to do whatever. But, so I love seeing people just educate themselves along this front. I feel like some of this is just do some recon. Some people that are listening to this right now didn’t really know that 4 in 10 people, you’re talking literally billions of people, about 3,000,000,000 people that don’t have access to the gospel, they might not have known that 15 minutes ago. So if that’s the case, then it might be time to kind of research that a little bit. Go to the Joshua Project online. Just Google Joshua Project and missions or gospel access or whatever. The four in ten. These are things that you can just Google and learn about and find out who are those people groups, where are they located, how many people are being sent in order to reach them. All that stuff just grows our heart and that’s the most important step of all.

It means we’ll pray more. It means we’ll give so that it’ll happen, but it also means we might be able to say, like, boy, could I go? Of course, for a lot of people, that’s terrifying. Of course, it is. It’s problematic. It’s how would you do this? Yeah. It might be nice not to have to raise money, but it does mean that you’re living in another culture. It does mean that you’re having to learn all the adjustments I’ve been making here. That might be terrifying, but it it’s also an adventure. It’s something to say, man, maybe I’m giving my life to something that’s not just so I can maybe have a nice house and be able to maybe get a second home or have a boat or take nice vacations, but maybe I’m doing my career in order to do something nobody else is doing. And here’s the thing. You might think like, oh, I’m not prepared for that or equipped for that. But the reality is, if you know Jesus and you’ve known him for 5 years in the west, you know more than anybody in the neighborhood you’ll move to. You know, if I had been converted 5 years ago, I would know more than anyone in not only in my entire apartment here, not only my whole “Mahale”, they say here, (which means “the neighborhood”). I would know more than most of this whole city about Jesus. And it doesn’t take much knowledge. It just takes a little bit of experience. And if you’ve had an experience with God, he’s equipped you with it. It’s really just a matter of getting there.

So I suggest that people do a little research, grow their heart for it, come to our website to be able to learn more about Global Marketplace Multipliers. If they go to, GPonline.org/gmm, which stands for Global Marketplace Multipliers, they can sign up for a newsletter. They’re gonna hear about all this stuff, become more knowledgeable about it, and maybe we can help them find a job in another country at some strategic point. But it takes a lot of preparation to get there. We do some things to prepare people and train them, and then keep them connected afterwards so they don’t get lonely in the task.

Jeff Clark:
Well, we will link to that in the show notes and challenge people to do this, educate themselves, learn, because there are a lot of people who listen to this who have a heartbeat for work as worship, but maybe they’ll grow in their heart for the lost people, the unreached people groups of the world. So thanks, David, so much for embodying this work, actually doing it, but also for your passion in activating the gospel going to new places through the marketplace.

David Drury:
Well, it’s a real privilege to be able to talk about it. I mean, in the end, know, we don’t wanna push anybody to do this, but we do wanna help people dream about it. There are a lot of people out there that maybe they thought about, maybe I would like to live and work abroad at some point, or maybe they’re just like, boy, I’m really engaged with my church. I love what I’m doing, but I really feel like I could be doing so much more. But I don’t wanna not do my work. It’s my career is my calling. I feel like the thing I do is my job, and they haven’t found a way to do that and have it make a difference. I tell you what, if they could do their job in some of these places with unreached people groups, man alive, the impact they could have could be generational for those people. You could be the start of a whole movement of disciple-makers in a place where there are no disciple-makers. That is the kind of thing that’s a life legacy that is kind of almost immeasurable for eternity.

Jeff Clark:
Well, we’ll be praying and hoping for the people who are listening that God will stir their hearts, and maybe you’ll have more people engage in this mission.

David Drury:
Wonderful. It all starts just with taking your work seriously where you live now. That’s certainly the start of it. And over time, though, it can be pretty crazy.

Jeff Clark:
Thanks so much, David.

Carrie Whitcher:
Thank you for listening to this episode of the Marketplace Multipliers podcast. For more information, go to www.marketplacemultipliers.com. Please like and subscribe to this podcast and share with others who may benefit.  And remember, you, too, can integrate your faith and influence your workplace for Christ.

Carrie Whitcher:
Hi, everyone. My name is Carrie Whitcher, and you too can be a marketplace multiplier because marketplace multipliers equip all Christians to influence their workplace and integrate their faith by making disciples and unleashing the kingdom of God wherever they are. 

Jeff Clark:
Welcome to another episode of the Marketplace Multipliers podcast. My name is Jeff Clark, and I serve as the Associate Head Basketball Coach at Indiana Wesleyan University. Today, we’re gonna be joined by Dr.an Eric Ireland. He serves as the Associate Vice President of Kingswood Extended, where they’ve developed a Marketplace Multiplier Certificate. And this is very exciting because so often we hear of people who have a heartbeat to do this work of marketplace multiplication, but they struggle with the next steps of what it means to actually steward influence for Christ. And they’ve developed a certificate that’s available to anybody who wants to grow in knowledge and insight in what that means. You’ll hear more from Dr. Ireland about that, but you can right now go to Kingswood.edu/ register to find out more. We’re joined now by Dr. Eric Ireland. And, Dr. Ireland, why don’t you just start by sharing your heartbeat for marketplace multipliers?

Eric Ireland:
I’m really excited for this movement across the Wesleyan denomination and far beyond, I’m sure, because for too long we have thought about ministry as something done by clergy people. This is not a problem just for us and our tribe or the evangelical church or the North American church. This is a problem for Catholics and Episcopalians and all these groups worldwide. And I think it’s high time that the entirety of the kingdom of God get involved in ministry.

Jeff Clark:
Now you play a unique role in that you’re in a higher education context. So what is the role of higher education in solving this?

Eric Ireland:
Yeah. I think Christian higher education in particular has a deep history, and a rich history along this idea. Of course, long before the thought or the term marketplace multipliers was coined, for a 100-150 years in North America in particular, Christian higher education has thought of itself as a launching pad for ministers and especially in liberal arts institutions, they’ve got departments for English and for business and for medicine. They’re not launching clergy people only.

They have a division for religion, but they’re launching people into ministry in all of the ways that lay and clergy people can be involved in ministry. Of course, that drifts, I think, and sometimes Christian higher ed in particular is going to suffer from this where we don’t think of ourselves as discipleship opportunities and discipleship boot camps. I think that’s really the sweet spot. If Christian higher ed realizes the incredibly rich environments they provide through their faculty, through extracurricular environments, through residential experiences, through a leadership development of student, student leaders. These are sanctifying contexts. That’s a term that Dr. Lennox, our president, coined several years ago, I think even before he was our president. He’s been in Christian higher ed for decades, and he was observing that happen in his ministry, how important it is for our schools to think of themselves as discipleship for marketplace multiplication.

Jeff Clark:
And it’s super fun sitting in this role to see how that’s popping up in different ways at different places. So, I know I coach basketball, and we talk about “I am 3^rd” and how that comes to life. At Indiana Wesleyan, they use the word world changers. At Houghton University, there’s some things popping up, and it’s really coming to life in different ways. And at Kingswood, you guys have very intentionally built a certificate. Can you talk a little bit about what you’ve built, how it works and how it can benefit people?

Eric Ireland:
Yeah. Kingswood is weird among our Wesleyan Higher Educational Institutions, and across other higher ed in North America. It’s a bible college and so we’ve traditionally thought of ourselves as pumping out ministers and ministers only. But there’s a rich heritage among faculty in our schools and those we work with across North America because our school can be involved and is involved in lay preparation for the ministry as well. And so the way we have recently conceptualized that is through a Marketplace Multiplier Certificate. It is studied not for a degree, they’re not 3 credit courses, they are closer to 1 or 1.5 if you’re really to analyze all the work done, but we have 5 courses in a Marketplace Multiplication Certificate that prepares anybody who’s at home discipling their family, who’s at work discipling their boss, their subordinates, or their peers, or coworkers, or the CEO, or the CFO running an organization, or the doctor running a dentistry office who realizes that they are stewarding a congregation of sorts where they are. Such people would be really well served by studying in these 5 courses of the Marketplace Multiplication Certificate.

Jeff Clark:
I love the heartbeat of what you’re talking about because what we run up against so much is Christians who get a a spark in their heart for this, and they’re ready to go, but they don’t know how to implement it. They don’t have a depth of knowledge on what it looks like, and you’re trying to provide for that specifically. So why don’t you talk a little bit about anybody can sign up for this. When they do, what will they get on the other side?

Eric Ireland:
We even find, even in a Christian discipling environment like Wesleyan Higher Education, you may still need this kind of help because you’ve probably been taught by excellent believers of deep faith what it means to study biology, for instance, but you still might not know what that means to disciple as you are being an MD. Right? These are skills that you need to pick up even if you have a Christian worldview. You still need to be discipled on how to disciple. So that’s what we’ve done. The courses, they start off with thinking about “Work in the Bible”. That’s the first title. I think it’s important that the marketplace multiplier realize that, yes, the curse has touched the work you do. In particular, in the garden and the condemnation, the curse that comes to Adam is that there is now toil and work. We do it, but it’s rough, and we definitely feel that. Lots of us, when we get up with the alarm and think, I’ve got to go to the office. Work has become a 4-letter word, but it is a means by which God intends to redeem the world. It’s one of them. And so, “Work in the Bible” just helps a person think through that whole thing, how God redeems work. It is not a 4-letter word. It is a place where we can find joy and meaning and certainly ministry.

Of course,the role of leadership is super important for every Christian leader and disciple maker. So, we have a course on what it is to “Lead as a Christian”. And then I think the other one that I’m most excited about is the “Models of Marketplace Multiplication” course. It’s usually the last one a person will take, and it helps a person think. When I was introduced to this idea, I thought, wow. There’s such promise for the Christian business owner or CEO who gets to call the shots and say, “You know what? We’re gonna close on a Sunday.” Right? There are all these ideas we have about what makes a business Christian. They keep the Sabbath or they donate a tenth of their profits somewhere. But what it means to disciple in the marketplace for most of us is using the influence we have as a parent, as an employee, as a coworker, and the Models of Marketplace Ministry course helps a person think far beyond the models that come to mind, and I think it really helps a person break outside of the box to think through and discuss those models with each other.

Carrie Whitcher:
Hi, everyone. My name is Carrie Whitcher, and you too can be a marketplace multiplier because marketplace multipliers equip all Christians to influence their workplace and integrate their faith by making disciples and unleashing the kingdom of God wherever they are. 

Jeff Clark:
Welcome to another episode of the Marketplace Multipliers podcast. My name is Jeff Clark, and I serve as the Associate Head Basketball Coach at Indiana Wesleyan University. Today, we’re gonna be joined by pastor Amanda Oicle from Public Church  in Boston, and we’re gonna hear a story that is a little bit different. It starts out inspiring with her feeling called to pastor a church in Boston and do it through the marketplace, but one where she’s faced extreme resistance and then ultimately rejection for the thing that God had put in her heart. We’re just super grateful for how transparent and authentic she was in sharing her story. And I know for many people, they’re gonna be encouraged and inspired by her faithfulness, but also just the way in which she continues to have hope and faith in Jesus Christ as she pursues the mission.

We’re joined now by Pastor Amanda Oicle from Public Church in Boston. Pastor Amanda, could you just start by sharing the journey to planting a church in Boston?

Amanda Oicle:
Sure. So I became a Christian at 18. Shortly after that, God spoke to me about pastoral ministry, but I didn’t believe He was talking to me. And then, just through some life circumstances, delayed my saying yes to that leading. And then when I was 27, God poked me again and said, “Hey. Why don’t you become a pastor? Why don’t you serve me full time?” And I was just like, “Oh, okay.” And then shortly after that, I had a dream of my husband and I looking for actually a storefront to start a church in. And so I was like, “Oh, I guess I’m called to church planting!”

And I was actually a part of a church plant at the time, so that helped me just understand the context of what it meant to be a church planter. Well, so I thought. And so I, yeah, started doing coursework, working towards ordination in the Wesleyan church. And I started at home just online, and then God led my family and I to relocate to Kingswood University, which had many benefits, one of those being that I got to meet Pastor Brandon Peterson, who was just at the school doing a chapel service, but just felt like a connection to him and Jen, right away.

And then after I graduated, I was asked to go to Ontario to do kinda like a restart out of a church there in Ontario. So I knew I needed a coach, that I would need some help. So I reached out to Brandon, and he said, “Well, hey. I’m doing this course with another pastor named Melinda Priest. Would you like to join us in it?” And I said, “Sure!” So I did this course with them for 8-9 months, and then actually ended up resigning from my position in Ontario. And shortly after that, Melinda invited me to Boston, and that’s how I got here.

Jeff Clark:
I think anyone listening sees a pattern of you being willing to say yes. And, obviously, if you’re gonna plant a church in Boston, you’re willing to go for it. So fast forward now to this stirring in your heart for marketplace ministry and what you guys decided to do.

Amanda Oicle:
Yeah. So shortly after coming here and just dreaming about what Public Church would be, I knew that we weren’t necessarily gonna follow, like, a traditional church path. And so just working with Melinda and Brandon and just dreaming about what our space could be, this concept of coffee just kept coming up.

And even actually when I was still back at Kingswood, I wrote up a church planting plan to use a coffee shop as the space to gather in. But then as we were talking about it, I was like, I don’t think we’re just supposed to meet in a coffee shop. I think we’re actually supposed to start a coffee shop. And a lot of that, you know, is summarized in our mission, which is to create community connection, where all people are seen and known by the transforming love of Christ for the renewal of the city. And so it just so happened that, yeah, actually starting a coffee shop in the neighborhood of Jamaica Plain would allow us to pilot our business, and meet a tangible need. There was no good coffee shops where Awaken City Church is. So, we actually started with a coffee cart, and then that developed into a permanent brick and mortar spot just right next door to Awaken City Church. And so, yeah, our vision of creating proximity spaces or third spaces, whichever language you’re more familiar with, to be close to those who feel far from Jesus actually came to be. And the vision was to also use the businesses – because we wanted, and still do, but especially then we wanted to have multiple businesses eventually throughout the city. And then, Public Church is a micro church network, so the plan was that the churches would meet in the business spaces.

Jeff Clark:
And knowing your heart even for a little bit, your heart is for the people, and you’re trying to provide a good, and create community, but it’s not received maybe the way that we would hope this story would go. You have a vision. You go for it. You’re trying to give things away to the community. Just walk us through what happened as you tried to bring this business to life.

Amanda Oicle:
Yeah. Sure. So, I mean, we knew, especially just living in our context for as long as we have, and I’m from a very similar city back in Canada called Halifax. So very similar liberal leaning. And so we knew that there would be some opposition to Christians owning a business, and in particular in the neighborhood that we started because there’s evidence for it. But, you know, we felt like this was the way God was leading us, so we moved forward. But part of getting the space ready was that we had to rezone or ask for a variance of use for the building. And so even before construction started, the neighbors knew who we were and what we were gonna do, and, we were very nervous. We honestly expected that they would vote negatively, that they would not want us. And surprisingly, they voted in the affirmative. We had a unanimous yes. And so we were able to, yeah, get the Change of Use, and so we move forward with construction. But shortly after that, there was a couple of articles that were written about us, tying us to some quotes that weren’t even connected to the Wesleyan denomination. And that stirred a little bit of questions in the neighborhood, and, we had a couple people ask us, and we had great conversations.

And then, yeah, we did renovations for about a year. So for a year, the community knew we were coming, but we didn’t hear much. And then, shortly after we opened, there was a call via flyers posted around the neighborhood for the neighborhood to boycott us, saying that the Wesleyan church, yeah, you know, are fascists, bigots, anti-LGTBQ, anti -trans, and just, you know, really started some narratives in the neighborhood that unless people were like us and, you know, thought exactly how we did and believed how we did, that they wouldn’t be welcome in the coffee shop. And so, you know, we refuted that. We said that’s not the case. All people are welcome here.

And then, the person who put up the flyers, we had already been open 2 months, and on our grand opening, she organized protest against us. So during our operating hours, there was probably throughout the day about 10-15 people outside just protesting the shop, and were kinda yelling at customers as they came in and out. And at one point, came in the shop and was yelling at us. And, yeah, unfortunately we had to ask them to leave, and that day was over. And as the word tells us, God’s mercy is new every day. So we really questioned even at that point, you know, should we keep going? But we decided to keep going.

And for, you know, the next couple of months, it was kind of business as usual, but we noticed our trends were not in line with other coffee shops. I have a couple of friends who have started and operate coffee shops and talk to them. And, I mean, we didn’t expect to be, like, completely sustainable for a little while, but we saw a significant drop in our sales after that protest. And we’d have people come in and they would say,
“Oh, this space is so nice. Thank you for coming in the neighborhood. Your coffee’s so good. We’re gonna go tell all our friends. We’ll be here all the time.” And then they would leave and never come back. So eventually we realized this isn’t a coincidence. They would go tell their friends, and then their friends would be like, “Well, don’t you know?” And then they, you know, wouldn’t come back. So, yeah, so we kept going. And then there was a particular group in June that there was a a rumor going around on Facebook that the coffee shop was a front for conversion therapy. And so there was a particular group in the neighborhood that didn’t like that and started protesting us as well. So we ended up closing the beginning of August.

So from like mid-August till we closed, they protested us 3 times. And then on our final Saturday, they planned a a celebration/ protest for us, and we just decided not to open that day and move on. So, yeah. So what was a major dream for us and what we saw as an answer to prayer, just the way that we fundraised and the money came in. We wanted to kind of fight and keep going as long as we could. But like I got to the point where I just didn’t feel peace anymore working there and stayed probably too long even after feeling that way. Just, you know, hoping that something would turn the tide. But I stopped working in the shop the middle of June, and then my husband stayed until, like I said, the early August. And then we decided to close the doors to the public, which was very disappointing, very sad. But we felt like we had been obedient along the way and we did see God move and work in that space.

There is a family – that is a mom, 2 children, and her mom – have now been baptized and rededicated their life to Jesus because one day she came into a coffee shop. So what we feel like is we presented the gospel, and some people accepted it, but many have rejected it. Yeah, that’s where we find ourselves.

Jeff Clark:
I’d love to hear, to go a little deeper with you because what you want the stories to always be is you follow God’s leading, and everything explodes. But I heard recently, someone I really respect talking about in leadership, when they look at Jesus, maybe the hardest thing he had to go through on the cross was being misunderstood. And how hard it is when you’re in a position of spiritual leadership, when whoever it is you’re trying to serve and love doesn’t understand what you’re doing. So just talk to others who are in a tough spot of ministry right now about the journey you’ve been through personally of just doing something with a sincere heart, being misunderstood and then it not going the way you were hoping that it would go. What have you learned, and how would you encourage others who either are or may soon be in a position like you’re in?

Amanda Oicle:
Yeah, those are big questions. And, honestly, ones I’m still processing. Being here in Boston, it really felt like coming home to me because, like I mentioned, the culture here is very similar to where I grew up, or I lived until, you know, saying yes to Jesus and going wherever you told me to go. So it was easy coming here. I think some people, like, on the outside looking in would be like, “Wow, you should never go there. It’s a really hard place.” Like, you know, we hear some different stats, but 4-8% of the population are evangelical Protestants, so there’s a significant, Catholic population, but there are a lot of people here who have moved here specifically to get away from their past. And often that’s connected to Christianity.

So there are people here who are quite hostile towards the gospel. And so we thought creating this space would be kind of neutral ground for people, so that they could reconnect with, you know, Christians and maybe re-explore faith or, you know, and even some for the first time. So, yes, we knew it was gonna be hard, but, like, you hear that anything is possible with God, you know? And, that’s absolutely true. But what does it mean when the thing you try – that you feel led by God to do – fails.

So, yeah, I mean, the questions I’ve asked God are obviously, “Why?”, “What’s next?”, “What did I do wrong?” So I’ll go backwards. Like, I don’t sense that we did anything wrong. What’s next? I’m a marketplace church planter. Like, that’s who I am. So I wanna try again. But I’m trying to figure out if that’s here in Boston or somewhere else. I want it to be Boston, but there’s just some there’s hesitation to try something, you know, even though it’s a different part of the city, different neighborhood. One would assume that the same thing’s gonna happen. Now it might not. And I’m enough of an optimist to, like, wanna give people the benefit of the doubt and try again. So we’re trying to figure that out and why did it not work? I think it did work. Like I say, it failed because it’s no longer operating, But I was just actually sharing this with some friends the other day. Like, I kinda feel like what we needed to do in that space happened. We completed the task. And I don’t know what the outcome is necessarily for it, but I said, I do know we presented the gospel and some accepted and some rejected, and that’s what we’re called to do. It’s really easy to blame ourselves, but I actually was listening to a podcast once where a church planter had to close his church, and he said, “We give God the glory, we give him praise when things go well, and when they don’t, we blame ourselves. But God’s the same God, you know? He’s still in control. And, yeah, I think planted many seeds. I think God will water them, and there will be fruit. And again, I don’t know how or when or why, but I think, I just trust God with the outcome. You know? We’ve tried to be faithful, but we’re letting him be the one who brings the fruit.

Jeff Clark:
Well, man, I know you’re inspiring me and many who are listening to this by your faithfulness and hope. And I know also that, from conversations, there’s been opportunities for you to respond in many different ways, and you’ve chosen to respond with love and with grace no matter how things went from from outsiders. So, maybe just finish with – for those who are listening, how can they specifically pray for you? How can they pray for the people in your area? And then if they wanna reach out and connect in some way to your church, what would be the pathway for them to do that?

Amanda Oicle:
Sure. Yeah. So prayer. Like I mentioned, it’s hard to picture Public Church moving forward without the marketplace piece to it, the vision that we had for businesses. We’re continuing to meet and gather as a church, but I am in a discernment time. And so prayer just for wisdom and direction would be fantastic to know… I don’t wanna make any decisions based off of fear, but like, we have a lot more wisdom now about Boston than we did, you know, the first time around. So I wanna be faithful with, obviously, God’s resources and be obedient. Like, that’s what I ultimately want at the end of the day.

And, you know, we are a little angry. We’re a little hurt. So healing, prayers for healing, and I ultimately just want to continue to be obedient to God. And if people wanna contact us, we are on social media as Public Church Boston, and also still as Public Coffee Boston. And so, yeah, DM there or email me at  amanda@publicchurchboston.com.

Jeff Clark:
Well, Amanda, thank you for sharing with such authenticity and just a real story of someone who’s pursuing marketplace ministry on the front lines. I know many people will be inspired and benefit from how you’ve taught us and what we’re learning through your example. So we really appreciate it, and thanks so much for coming on.

Amanda Oicle:
Thank you for having me.